tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post779202252421211110..comments2024-03-07T16:20:50.007+00:00Comments on Librarians & Leviathans: So a Techmarine, a Scout and a Lexicanum walk into a hive...Shimmin Beghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10350037986748679919noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-28434296352284648752014-01-18T13:06:26.393+00:002014-01-18T13:06:26.393+00:00I'm inclined to agree that the Heavy Bolter it...I'm inclined to agree that the Heavy Bolter itself is at least a big part of the issue.Dan Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05711867728179306264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-47601830303761930232014-01-18T05:56:31.832+00:002014-01-18T05:56:31.832+00:00Fair enough, I get it now. As you say, I'm no...Fair enough, I get it now. As you say, I'm not sure how much can be done. The more I look at it, the more I'm inclined to think the heavy bolter itself is the root of the issue, but that may be lack-of-sleep-induced excessiveness.<br /><br />That's true enough - I had it for Stony Sleep and failed the roll that came up.Shimmin Beghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350037986748679919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-44961406999998388942014-01-17T23:26:08.053+00:002014-01-17T23:26:08.053+00:00I think that's partly true, although I think w...I think that's partly true, although I think we were probably scared a little by genestealers.<br /><br />A Chaos Space Marine might well want to fight in melee, but would probably be even deadlier fighting with a bolter. Quite a lot of tyranid creatures are melee-only, but not the powerhouse you expect from a 'stealer or a full blown 'nid warrior.Dan Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05711867728179306264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-53913683254407534202014-01-17T23:23:39.981+00:002014-01-17T23:23:39.981+00:00I wasn't so much thinking about us wading into...I wasn't so much thinking about us wading into melee for no clear reason as being more culturally open to situations where things fall back to melee combat.<br /><br />For example, the current division of labour tends to be that Erec and Iacomo zap the heavies while Nikolai ties up the Hordes. Part of the reason we do this is that Arthur is actually a little bit generous in his interpretation of how Hordes work. There's no particular reason that a Horde couldn't attack all of us at once (tying up my bolter, freeing Nikolai to go after high-priority targets). Of course the flip side of this is that it could encourage us to engage from even greater distances.<br /><br />Also, as you've observed, one of the problems with being a skillmonkey is that the 40K system really doesn't reward it that much. Partly for the slightly metagame reason you mentioned after the game (if nobody has the skill, the GM will probably find a workaround, if somebody does have the skill, you can roll and fail), partly because the highest level of skill you can get in the game is +30, which is a huge investment of XP for a bonus you can more than make up for with equipment and circumstantial modifiers. It's made even worse by the fact that the game strictly restricts the amount of points you can spend on a skill at any given rank, and by the fact that any given skill is likely to be rolled less than once a session on average, meaning all you get for your XP is a 10% chance per session of succeeding at something you would have failed at. 90% of the time your investment does literally nothing.<br /><br />Case in point, I seem to recall that Nikolai *does* already have training in Demolitions, but I'm also pretty sure that he has *never actually passed a Demolitions check*.Dan Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05711867728179306264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-70276377325291902432014-01-17T23:07:19.132+00:002014-01-17T23:07:19.132+00:00Another thought that I really ought to have had ea...Another thought that I really ought to have had earlier:<br />Coming back to the issue of getting into melée, there's an additional problem with surprise melée encounters, which is that the kind of enemies who want to end up in melée with you are almost certainly enemies that you don't actually want to fight in melée anyway. In fairness though, an assault marine is likely to do better against them than anyone else.Shimmin Beghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350037986748679919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-17505406173007349732014-01-17T21:05:01.327+00:002014-01-17T21:05:01.327+00:00I'm not sure if it came across that way, but t...I'm not sure if it came across that way, but this was definitely supposed to be an observation-discussion post rather than a complaint...<br /><br />It looks like various things, power swords and newly-rockin' initiative amongst them, will push Nikolai into being more dangerous in melée, and that's fine with me. That being said, it doesn't do much about the party dynamic and general design stuff, which is possibly more significant. Very broadly speaking, it doesn't especially matter what number of damage Nikolai can do in melée, only whether charging into melée is a good option. If it's not a good option quite a lot of the time, then focusing *all* my XP on improving his melée capabilities isn't the most useful thing to do with it. And let me point out, I genuinely like skill-monkeying and I always imagined him that way inclined.<br /><br />As you say, our playstyle as well as our group is reasonably supportive of a noisy shooting approach to problems (although it must be said that jump packs, grenades and chainswords aren't precisely subtle either), and unless you're proposing we change that, which I'm not sure anyone would be in favour of, it's not especially likely that assault is going to become a big part of our games.<br /><br />The thing you may be forgetting a bit is that Nikolai is already really very good at fighting things in melée. He's very nearly as good as he could be at this level. So I'm not talking about turning an assault marine into an elderly short-sighted botany professor with an interest in Icelandic cuisine here. What I'm thinking is that instead of spending XP at ever-spiralling rates to make him even better at melée when it eventually breaks out, I could use it to make Nikolai significantly better at some other things that come up regularly in missions, and make sure to buy him a weapon with some decent range. Melée stat increases are looking diminishing-returnsy at the moment, and I suspect breadth rather than specialisation is currently more likely to increase fun.<br /><br />There's a certain amount of accommodation, I won't lie, but I think it's a fairly sensible approach in the circumstances. I'm happy to have a bit more melée if it seems like fun, and certainly I'd probably enjoy some recon missions, but it strikes me that it would actually be a bit daft for Iacomo to start wading in with a chainsword if the option of the heavy bolter presents itself. We're really not having a problem where my dreadful gaming buddies refuse to indulge me in melée combat here.<br /><br />On the whole I suspect outside a dedicated assault team à la tabletop, the most sensible use for an assault marine probably is the point man with... I dunno, probably a bolter's as good as anything, although flamers are always fun. He's the best equipped to deal with things dropping on his head, he can get out of trouble faster than anyone else, and if anything does look like surviving into melée he can rush across with chainswords and turn it into hamburger.<br /><br />Incidentally, given the heavy bolter can go for 25 rounds on an ammo load and the average encounter lasts two rounds, I'm not sure limiting ammo would make too much difference!Shimmin Beghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350037986748679919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-533573536330092840.post-57687376565450087482014-01-17T15:34:14.103+00:002014-01-17T15:34:14.103+00:00You might want to hold fire for a bit just to see ...You might want to hold fire for a bit just to see what difference dual-wielding power swords makes: if I recall correctly they put your melee attack damage up to 1D10 + 18 Pen 6, which compares favourably with heavy bolter damage.<br /><br />Also, while it's nice of you to try to accommodate us, I think there are also things that the Librarian and I can do to make ourselves a bit more amenable to melee combat. Iacomo's WS isn't terrble (although it's annoyingly expensive to raise as a Devastator) and strangely Devastators *do* get some melee bonuses.<br /><br />I also suspect that the way we play undermines a lot of the advantages of an Assault Marine. Because the game is fairly lighthearted and focuses a lot on a very OTT playstyle, it doesn't really matter if we respond to every threat with a hail of heavy bolter fire and Force Lightning. If we did more stealth and recon missions, our massive arsenal of pyrotechnics would be a lot more difficult to use.<br /><br />Of course, the way we play, stealth and recon really aren't sensible options, not least because we're all wearing bright yellow armour.<br /><br />Similarly, I suspect that a lot of the things we ignore - like limited ammo or the sheer impracticality of toting multiple heavy weapons - would likewise shift the balance more towards the lightly armed melee fighter.Dan Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05711867728179306264noreply@blogger.com